A quick update...
Back in June I wrote a blog called "The Next Big Thing" which described the new multi-site video church concept.
As of right now [late October 2006], only 4 months later, Andy Stanley's church network now has a partner church in Greenville that shows videos of his preaching.
The 7,000+ NewSpring Church in nearby Anderson is looking for property to build their first video venue here in Greenville.
A Greenville megachurch of over 5,000 is planning their first video venue.
Another Greenville megachurch of over 2,000 is in the exploratory stages of creating their first video venue.
Like I said in the first article, what will happen if [or when] Rick Warren plants a church in your town? Suddenly, I'll bet the battles over the color of your carpet, or whether you do enough hymns will matter that much in the face of fierce competition by a megachurch on the move.
Which church do you think your average visitor would rather go to: a church that allows off-pitch Aunt Sally to sing solos, or a mega church with standards? [By the way, you don't have to be a megachurch to have standards.]
In other words, churches, get over your dumb, ingrown habits and start getting serious about your mission. Or you're going to go out of business.
If all this is happening in little old Greenville, your town is next.
19 comments:
In essentials unity...in traditions liberty...in all things love.
I don't think I have the exact quote...but you get the idea.
That sounds so spiritual. All I can conclude is that your church is probably battling over carpet color and you're offended by my post.
Is love not pointing out that arguing over carpet color is dumb, especially when a megachurch might be coming to town that is too busy trying to reach the community to be bothered arguing about carpet color? Or rather, is love calling churches on the carpet? [pun intended.]
I Love You, Don.
I just came on this site, because I became a worship leader at this small church. And yes it has had it's major fights over the carpet, the building, the worship... you name it, they have fought over it. Yet at the same time, I see what Don is saying.
I was in Christian radio for over 30 yrs. I was one of the first guys to create the CCM format in Tulsa, OK in 1976. When they first started talking about using satillite to bring stations programming in the 1980s, no one thought stations like K-Love, AFR and others would take over their markets and hurt local Christian stations, but they did and they have. God help us, if something like this takes off.
And I will tell you why and it is the same reason why I am against K-Love and others like them. Where is the local ministry? Where is the group of people who will counsel with someone at odd hours of the night? And just as K-Love and other major networks have hurt local Christian stations and put people out of jobs who had ministries, I believe this will do the same with Video Megachurches. It is a sad, sad, day when people flock to a video screen and be lifted up instead of a local church.
I do agree with Don about one thing he said, it is because of the stupid wars and fights that most churches get into that keep things from running smooth. But at the same time, I hate that we would go do a video church to ministered to. I just feel it leaves the personal touch out. We might as well just say home and watch it on TV.
Our third anonymous viewer seems to be ignorant about what these churches are doing. To enlighten you a little, dear friend:
These satellite churches in no way resemble to stupid satellite Christian radio stations of which you speak. They all have pastoral staffs of their own that minister to the people. There is live worship and local pastor wrap up the sermons to tie it in with the local congregation.
There are only a few pastors in the world that have been given the talents to do what some of these speakers are able to do with discerening the word and preaching and teaching it. Why should Christians have to settle for crappy worship and crappy preaching just because they happen to live in Greer, SC or Podunk, GA?
I think that this is going to be a huge evangelistic tool to reach people who would never give a poorly prepared pastor the time of day. Will it put people out of work? I hope so...but just the pastors who should have never been in the ministry any way.
Nobody needs to settle for mediocre work, BUT we also shouldn't assume mediocrity is the norm in places off the beaten path.
Excellence in worship and preaching perhaps needs to be defined. What is "c****y" can be subjective. If standards that use megachurches as benchmarks are imposed, then maybe it is "junk".
As a pastor of a small church, I've been there and pesronally done that on the 'junky' scale -- I admit I'm no RW, EY or BH. Likewise, among my peers I've also heard great preaching and experienced music done well, but not on the scale of the megachurch.
Unfortunately, people will compare "walmart" to "mack's five and dime". Even when Mack is achieving excellence (from God's perspective), a market-driven, consumerist perspective can be the imposed standard/measure of what is right and good.
The exhortation to not let the minors drive what is major is a good one. However, the reality of the walmart mentality shaping the church is a real one and it doesn't just affect churches that do a "poor" job -- good ones are impacted as well.
Back to the real subject at hand: the Wal-Mart Effect. Part of the reason why Wal-Mart does such a great job at sales (that's their purpose) is because they meet the real needs well. They market well, the present products well, and they provide the right services. They do this all in a manner that compels the consumer to make a choice: you either buy something because it's convenient, low priced, and is exactly what you need, rather than settling for something that is more expensive, takes a little work to find, and is close to what you need. Use Wal-Mart's example for that matter and the church could learn a lot.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of Wal-Mart's ethical history. But they know how to sell stuff and that's what they're all about. If the church, with supposedly better ethics, would be good at marketing what they're all about, perhaps our smaller churches wouldn't feel the pressure from churches that ARE doing things right.
People who are looking for Christ will go where they can find him in a convenient way, rather than sorting through carpet discussions, Aunt Sally's terrible singing, the Pastor's ill-prepared sermons, and a spiritually lacking music time. They'll go to a church where the church DOES major in helping others learn about Christ and not majoring in self-absorbtion.
We would do well to teach the Wal-Mart Effect to our church leadership. I'm going to.
About Aunt Sally- does God really care if she has the world's greatest voice? Should only the supertalented be allowed to share their gifts with others in the worship service? Doesn't the Bible say to "make a joyful noise to the Lord"?
I am reminded of a story I heard of some monks. They did not have the world's greatest voices, but each week they sang the music faithfully, and to the best of their ability.
One week, one of them had an idea. "Let's hire a choir of professional singers to sing for us this week!" The pros came and everyone was impressed.
The following week an angel came to them to give them a special message. The angel told them that the host of Heaven had "missed the music" that week. "Every week, he said, we hear music coming from your monastery, but this week we heard none."
"There must be some mistake," said one of the brothers, "This week, you should have heard the finest music ever! We had a great choir of professional singers!"
"No," said the angel, "we heard nothing. You see, in Heaven, we do not hear professionalism. We only hear music that comes from your hearts."
It's not our business to "stay in business."
Jesus said he'd build the church - we're the rocks... the foundation... the soil... the dirt that he builds it on.
Sure, flash attracts. Lazyness repels.
Yet it is the Gospel that saves, isn't it?
Perhaps Wal-Mart churching is bigger than you define it. If you go to any Wal-Mart you will find Subway, Great Clips, and many other businesses that exist within that umbrella. Perhaps the real key is learning to appreciate what every niche brings in all its imperfection.
In other words, maybe's there's room for a few megachurches to come into town, swallow up some dying churches and give them a place. Just as much as there is room for some megachurches to split because they've gotten full of themselves and create some emergent/postmodern communities that never want to go back that way again.
To paraphrase McManus, the goal isn't to be around in 10 years and come up with a plan to make it so. The goal is to follow Christ, and if he desires your local thing to fold so that something bigger or smaller can be healthier, then let him prune away.
Perhaps we need to stop looking at what we do through the lens of needing job security.
Joan, I won't debate you with my own fictitious tale. Instead, here's some of 1 Chronicles 25:
1 Moreover David and the captains of the army separated for the service some of the sons of Asaph, of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, stringed instruments, and cymbals. And the number of the skilled men performing their service was... [names of those chosen]
7 So the number of them, with their brethren who were instructed in the songs of the Lord, all who were skillful, was two hundred and eighty-eight.
Try reconciling your story with the facts of Scripture, and notice two things:
1. People are chosen to musically lead. They're singled out from others. That means some are not chosen, not included.
2. The ones chosen are skilled.
People in the warm, fuzzy "let's let anyone sing on stage" camp love to use the "make a joyful noise" verses. But they also love to leave off the last part of those verses: "Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth." Other passages say "all ye lands."
1. By all the earth, I would assume that means everyone. It sounds pretty broad. So I guess everyone should be in the choir, then, and nobody should be sitting in the audience? Of course not - I think God is simply telling everyone to participate. I would interpret this, based on those earlier Scriptures, that all should participate but only the chosen skilled should be leading.
My tone deaf dad should be singing his monotone heart out in church, but I ain't putting him on a microphone up in front of everyone. But then again, he has the sense to NOT want to be on the praise team. Most tone-deaf wannabes don't have this common sense.
2. You're assuming "noise" means an off-pitch racket. Here are some Hebrew translations of "noise" [Ruwa]
to shout, raise a sound, cry out, give a blast
to shout a war-cry or alarm of battle
to sound a signal for war or march
to shout in triumph
to shout in applause
to shout
to shout in triumph
to shout for joy
I didn't notice anything about letting pitch-challenged people sing on the praise team. Sounds more like a Hillsong recording when the crowd cheers as the band starts playing their favorite song.
That's a good Scripture, Don.
Unfortunately, there is that whole business about who shows up in Jesus in geneology - two women (including a Moabite and a hooker), a bunch of scandalous leaders (including David whom you mentioned), and a lot of controversy.
Then there are the smelly fishermen who were more than likely rejected by other Rabbi's that Jesus chose to be his primary disciples.
And so on... you catch the drift.
You're right... I've mentioned nothing about music. I'll give you that... that is, if you give me the fact that God is overall concerned with using the most unlikely of people to do amazing things.
Trade? Agree to see each other's point on this?
Cool.
Now...
Exodus 15:1
Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the LORD :
"I will sing to the LORD,
for he is highly exalted.
The horse and its rider
he has hurled into the sea.
and
Exodus 3:10
Moses said to the LORD, "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue."
So a guy who couldn't put his words together that well (i.e. a stuttering man) led the whole nation of Israel in song?
Yikes.
Maybe God didn't like that at all.
Yes! I see the light. It's really that simple.
People who can't sing on pitch should be singing and leading the congregation.
People who can't preach should be preaching.
In fact, nothing really matters except the heart attitude.
Whew - what a relief. Since standards don't really matter in the scheme of things, I don't have to waste my time on this website anymore.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Bahamas.
So basically you're stuck thinking...
"Oh, yeah?"
Gotcha.
I have just reading along on this. I have been watching WalMart stock lately and it hasn't done so well. I have been in WalMart stores lately and every time I go there I pledge that I will not go back again. No one knows anything about the products, there are 300 check stands and only three open with long lines. Automated check outs sit with out of order signs on them. Every time the person greets me at the door, it sounds so false. I want to tell them to quit standing around and get on a cash register!
The more time I spend in stores with poor service the better I like shopping on line. As long as I am going to do it all myself anyway, why put up with the crowds? I have gone back to doing business with people who know their business. I don't want to spend my time learning to do everyone else's job just to "save" money.
What does this have to do with worship? I see the Wal Mart Effect wearing off in many places. The shine may be wearing off "the latest thing".
I have worked as a hospital chaplain, and whenever someone was admitted to the hospital and listed a "Preaching personality" or worse yet a "television personality" as their pastor we had a dilemma. These people never visited in the hospital. I often wondered how much money the person who was in for major surgery or had a heart attack or was diagnosed with cancer had donated to this ministry yet when they needed pastoral care what were they going to get... ? Well they got the lowly hospital chaplain, someone usually from a mainline denomination who had been trained for the work. Robert Schuller nor Joel Osteen nor the local prima preacher ever came to pray with them in the dark night when a loved one lay dying.
People are finding out that "polish and presentation" is just the surface. There is a reason that they called it a worship "service". Remember when He said "the greatest among you will be the servant of all"?
Shopping at a store with no service gets frustrating when real problems and questions arise. Worshiping to a video screen may have the same short life span.
I have always kept the words of 2 Timothy 2:15 on my desk: "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth."
You see, preaching, worship, music, and ministry are a CRAFT not a commodity. Those called are craftsmen... (craftspersons) blessed with particular gifts. That is what it means to have standards for worship, music, and preaching. It means that people are students of the craft, not just purveyors of the commodity. Anyone who has eaten hospital or airline food compared to dinner at Grandma's knows the difference. Both will fill your stomach but only one really blesses your life.
People who buy their plumbing fixtures, or auto parts, or medicine discover that no matter how low the price may be, if you do not have the craftsmanship with it, the plumber, the mechanic, the pharmacist, then it is a poor bargain.
If people end up being "do it yourselfers" at church, whether it is in building maintenance, decorating (carpet etc.) administration or whatever it is because the church has done such a poor job of honoring the crafts of the people in it's Christian community. Part of the work of the church is to discern the gifts of the people of God, and to listen for the Spirit's direction in the use of the gifts.
If aunt Tillie is screeching through a solo at worship isn't it because her real gift has not been discerned or has not been valued? What is the loss to her life? What is the loss to the church of un-discerned gifts?
Worship without the craftspeople, the musician, the preacher, without the service, worship becomes cheap. Eventually it becomes disposable.
I tried chaplaincy, I tried teaching, but God lead me into my craft. I am not a plumber nor interior decorator nor auto mechanic. I have a degree in speech communication, and a doctorate in homiletics. I work each and every week to practice my craft. To present my work before God as one approved rightly "dividing" the Word as the KJV says.
I have no trouble expecting the musicians, or technicians, or actors, or whatever other craftspeople that I share worship leadership with to do the same.
Discernment of gifts and honoring of the craft is hard work. It means getting to know people, understanding their lives. A megachurch or a Video venue can never do it. They have a place, but they come up short when hardship hits. Even Jesus only tried to work with 12 and one of them went wrong. When hardship hit, all of them ran. Christian life is about dedication and commitment. To often Christians seem desperately afraid of spiritual work. So they are scattered, like sheep without a shepherd. How can people grow in their gifts with no connection between the faith their lips profess and what their hearts long for.
Anonymous said
"I believe this will do the same with Video Megachurches. It is a sad, sad, day when people flock to a video screen and be lifted up instead of a local church....
But at the same time, I hate that we would go do a video church to ministered to. I just feel it leaves the personal touch out. We might as well just say home and watch it on TV."
-----
Our ministry is doing just that. We have video house churches aka Neighborhood Life groups. It is turning out to be a phenomonal success. It has the personal interactive touch. It doesn't take training. We get to eat and throw popcorn at the screen or interupt the speaker because we want to say something. People are tv watchers. It's so natural for them to turn on a DVD. Ever watch 24 or lost with a group of people. You can't get them to shut up. With the video DVD we have just taped into peoples natural habits in the environment they are most familiar with.
Some Pastors are not liking this at all, but the neighbors love it and transformation is taking place right before our eyes.
No apologies here. Plus we don't have to argue about the color of the carpet.
The only reason I shop @ Walmart is because I do save $ on many things, but I hate that I'm forced to go there because I'm just a # and not a face that they care about. Now, Harris Teeter, on the other hand, has great customer service. They may be a little more expensive, but I'm willing to pay it because they seem to care that I'm there. I'd rather be where I'm not just a face in the crowd.
I believe there is a middle ground in the two lines that seem to be drawn here. When we start to work from our own egos, I think we start to deviate from what the churches, big and small, are at least TRYING to do. Give glory to God. I am a musician, while never professionally trained, (college or music conservatory)I work my buns off to give to the church (as organist/pianist and choir director the best that I have to offer, as part of GIVING GLORY to God. I understand both sides, needing quality and meaningful worship in all forms (music or otherwise) let us just not forget why we do it at all.
I did a quick check on verses in the bible, and it was very interesting.
In the NLT there are twenty two verses that talk about people who are skilled in a particualr area. The verse that stood out the most was this one
2 Chronicles 34:8-13
8 In the eighteenth year of his reign, after he had purified the land and the Temple, Josiah appointed Shaphan son of Azaliah, Maaseiah the governor of Jerusalem, and Joah son of Joahaz, the royal historian, to repair the Temple of the LORD his God.
9 They gave Hilkiah the high priest the money that had been collected by the Levites who served as gatekeepers at the Temple of God. The gifts were brought by people from Manasseh, Ephraim, and from all the remnant of Israel, as well as from all Judah, Benjamin, and the people of Jerusalem.
10 He entrusted the money to the men assigned to supervise the restoration of the LORD's Temple. Then they paid the workers who did the repairs and renovation.
11 Thus, they hired carpenters and masons and purchased cut stone for the walls and timber for the rafters and beams. They restored what earlier kings of Judah had allowed to fall into ruin.
12 The workers served faithfully under the leadership of Jahath and Obadiah, Levites of the Merarite clan, and Zechariah and Meshullam, Levites of the Kohathite clan. Other Levites, all of whom were skilled musicians,
13 were put in charge of the laborers of the various trades. Still others assisted as secretaries, officials, and gatekeepers.
Notice that the repair of the house of the Lord was given to WORKMEN (tradesmen) to do, and this work was overseen by various leaders, and by the WORSHIP TEAM, which was comprised of SKILLED musicians.
If God Himself places such a big emphasize on skilled labor, and skilled ministry, WHY WHY WHY don't we?
Wow. I have to say, that while I am a worship leader who holds to the thought that people involved musically in church should have musical talent and ability - I am discouraged and dismayed at the sarcasm and condescension used by Don Chapman and Chris Sligh. Don, this is the first time I've come to your posts. I read the "WorshipIdeas" emails every week and followed the link here today.
Now, I kind of wish I hadn't because I found the sarcastic and belittling comments to some posters extremely disappointing.
Whatever happened to speaking (writing) to others in truth and love, with gentleness and kindness?
Totally disappointed.
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